Sorry I haven't gotten back to this yet. I need to do a little research to answer some of the questions, and haven't had the time due to my son's wedding and him and his brother both being in town for a few days.

This is really one of the most interesting topics of the five solas, and I can't wait to jump in here with some of my thoughts. It probably won't happen until the weekend though.

Hi lizbeth:

You wrote: Interesting comment. While examining differences in an appropriate way helps us determine who is approved of YHWH (meaning determining who understands His way of life) so that we can learn more about YHWH by fellowshipping with others who believe similarily, whether or not they believe YHWH exists.

But on the other hand, the unity in YHWH that YaHshua prayed about before His murder, is even more edifying to the body of the Messiah when we examine our common believes with one another when our differences become less.

I must adsmit I have never heard of the solas. This might be because I am Catholic. However I have read several books on Luther. There is no doubt he protested against the over reliance on works by the Catholic Church of his time. His main attack was on the indulgences granted by many for such things as contributing to the building of St Peters Many Catholics condemned this for example Tetzel who attack it with such statements as "The sould flies out of purgatory as soon as the money rattles in the box" Most Catholic today would agree wit Tetzel and Luther condenation of these practices.
Luther did publish a Thesis . Whether it broke away from the thoughts and feelings of the meadieval Church or did it just give expression to its deepest and most devout thoughts on sin and pardon is debatable. The importance of faith befor works was not new but goes back to Augustine

Put very simplistically, Aus, the Five Solas are the outcome of the Reformation that became the necessaries for Salvation for members of the 'new reformed' Church. They're kind of like the much earlier Nicene Creed. Catholics, either Roman or not, put them into order like this: "I believe in God, the Father Almighty..., and his only Son, Our Lord, Begotten, not made..., in the Holy Spirit..."

Augustine of Hippo was way before the Reformation, but I don't recall that Faith and Good Works are a part of the Nicene Creed--I'll have to refresh myself.

Thanks Lizebeth, It makes more sense to say

From my reading I do not think Luther dispense with most Catholic Doctrines like the Nicene Creed. Many churches like the Anglicans and I suspect the Lutheans still use the creeds but give different meanings For example the Holy Catholic Church in tha Apostle Creed or the "One Holy, Catholic, Apostlic Church, in the Nicene Church, refers to a broader Church than the Roman Catholic Church.When I ask an Anglican spokesman at a Comparative Religion class what they believe, they produce the Creed.

Mony churches delveoped their own creed , such as the Westminister Confession of the Presbyterians. I am not sure how any one statement of belief could cover all Protestians.

Nicene creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Four marks of the church in Nicene Creed: One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic...

Catholic:
The universality of Christ's Church establishes the Church as being open to all: all races, both sexes, all nationalities. Christ refuses no one from His Grace; therefore, the Church cannot refuse anyone as long as they accept Christ's teachings and Church. "Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:18-20) Christ sent His apostles to preach to the whole world - to all mankind.

The catholicity of the Church also refers to the fact that the Church is the same everywhere, in every time. In the past, present, and future. In every land, with every people, the Church maintains the same rituals and beliefs.

As a kid growing in faith in an ELCA Lutheran church.. this was a 'thing' for me.. until I asked my Pastor... b/c my dad's family was devout Catholics.. and I was confused.... also the whole 'quick and the dead' quote, as a kid.. confused me.. thought if you were slow.. you were doomed to hell....

Wanderingspryte, Thanks for your comment. As I suspect the Lutheans like the Anglicans use the Nicene Creed. Perhaps a more old fashion version. We know longer use the term the quick and the dead. It is true when I was young the word Catholic we thought applied to only our Roman Catholic Church. However I see we can now accept a wider version. In Catholic teaching churches like The Anglican and Lutherans are not seperate churches but seperated brethen. In other words the members are still Catholic , our brothers in Christ but will some seperate beliefs.

The idea that the Chuch is universal in that it will refuse entry to no one is also in our church. Of course someone will bring up the issue of Gays. They are not ban from our church, just that some of their practices we would regard as sins if we performed them. However as there are few virgins in the chuch we are all alike in the same boat.

Of course this does not help to determe the difference emphasis on faith and works in our churches. The Nicene Creed says nothing about this but does put faith in God first. The Apstles Credd does have a line "He descended into hell.."This hell for Catholic is purgatory. I am not sure whether Lutherans believe in purgatory. The whole concept of indulgences, which were the central point ,of Luther's attack makes no sense if you do not believe in purgatory. Works can only help you if you go to purgatory. As Grams said some people lead better lives than us so deserve better rewards. As we all get the same reward in Heaven , the difference can only be achieved by each person having different treatment(time) in purgatory.

Ok, so here's the deal;


I think that Faith vs. Works is the biggest conflict in the New Testament. Almost like Paul taught a completely different religion than what Jesus and his apostles taught! For instance Jesus said:

Luke 7:46
"Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

John 15:9-10
"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.


There are numerous scriptures all throughout the Gospels that indicate that Jesus expected his followers to do something. Even much of what Paul teaches in the Epistles has to do with what we should and shouldn't do, yet then he emphasized over and over again that it is through faith not works that we are justified in Christ.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

At times it seems that Paul was so anti-works that he believed a person's conscience was all that decided whether something was right or wrong. This seems like a doctrine so far removed from Jesus' request that all me should follow His commandments, I can't see how the two mix!

1 Corinthians 10 is a good chapter to see this if you care to look it up. I'll quote only verse 23:

All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.


If indeed Christians are justified through "Faith Alone", what are we supposed to do with all of the laws, the Ten Commandments, and all of the other requirements we find throughout the Bible???

2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Tobias, I agree that the debate between the importance of works and faith is long standing. Easch side can quote biblical verses to support their stand.

However I think the debate has emphasis one side or the other due to Historical circumstances. Augustine writing in the 4th century when the Roman Empire was collapsing enphasis faith.At that time Christians had to fight to survive so emphasis on works seem meanerless. Faith was necessary to be a martyre

As the Church became stronger in the Middle Ages, Works came to the fore. Monks and hermits try to prove themselves by removing themselves from the world. They knew their faith was not sufficient to survive temptations of the world so try to overcome these tempetations by severe penance. This got out of hand as they competed to see who would impose the most self inflicted pain. The Church had to remind them to achieve eternal life they needed faith first. During the renanscience artists show both sides. The suffering in hell the rewards in Heaven.
Leaders competed to obtain the best art , the biggest buildings. They claim they were doing this for the greater glory of God but they were building and decorating the churches for their own glory.

The reformation led by Luther expose this hyporacy. Raising money to build St Peters was one of the main targets of their attacks. You can not gain entrance to heaven by just building churches. You had to have faith in Christ as well. luther was a stern preacher of rightousness . Man could not earn this righteousness by his own efforts. Without a personal trust with God works alone are not sufficient. This was not a new teaching but had been taught from Augustine but had been ignore in the Middle Ages.

He places his trust in God not Popes. Most of whom were corrupt. . The personal forgiveness of sin, with Luther is the one thing of overwhelming moment. is in the hands of God and of God alone. The Pope can proclaim indulgence but without this relationship with God they are of no avail.

At various times since faith or works have come to the fore. In the trials of the present times many are emphasing faith as Augustine had. However there is the danger that this faith will be used to overcome the need for works and obeying the commandements.