Hi Lees:

You wrote:Look again Lees, I didn't say that at all. You are providing a example of the very thing that I think claiming the Zodiac was created by 'God' presents; that it is being read into it just like you are reading into my comment, "... While I tend to side more with that idea ...", that I have that belief. So far this has only been information that has been presented to me. I have done nothing with it so far to believe or disbelieve it other than to have an initial reaction which tends to lean more one way than another.

You wrote:That's exactly what I meant when I said, "I believe it merits a closer look-see.".

You wrote:Not so. It appears that is according to you. You're reading things into something I said again Lees. I did not say and it can NOT, "only mean God didn't create man", as you are suggesting. You, yourself quoted me saying, "... its like saying He created evil because He created mankind who does evil."(emphasis mine). I said, "because He created mankind". How does that somehow say, "God didn't create man", as you say I said?

As usual your unfounded accusations are misdirected and of little value to anyone including yourself as it makes you look bad. Sticking to the topic at hand, that you introduced, would be far more productive than spewing out your petty little meaningless statements of your apparent hate of others. If you want to discuss Zodiac then that would be beneficial. If you want to discuss what you precieve as my failings, or those of others, little value can be gained from that by anyone. I know many of my failings and I'm working on them. I certainly don't need you twisted viewpoint of them as it is quite obvious by your statements that your preception misses the mark of what they are by a wide margin.

You wrote:Of course it is beyond you because you are reading things into what I'm writing that are not there in either the words nor the intent and you as a result place your own meaning on them saying it is my meaning. It is you who seems to want me to say something that its not saying and that I'm not saying.

You wrote:I agree but obviously not in the same way or for the same reasons you do.

You wrote:You're right, you guessed. Guess again, or better, try out 'knowing' for a change.

You wrote:Would it have, now? Well that is what it was for me too, Lees. What do you know, our knees act in the same way. Did you play hockey too?

You wrote:Kind of like when you said, "So, are you saying now what I believe. Which is the Christian is not to love the world."? Where does it say that in the Bible? Or are you reading something into the scriptures that is not there?

Take a good look at this post, Lees. I find it rather disgusting in how I've responded to you with personal finger pointing and all the time and energy it has taken to write down all this garbage. I'll not be doing it again. Will you continue to write in this same way?

Well, whether you think it, or believe it, the conclusion I responded with can only be the same. Apply it to yourself however you like.

If you feel it is ridiculous, as I do, then you should appreciate my comment to help sway you in your final belief.

I can't worry about looking bad. But, if my statements were so meaningless, why are you upset?

Thats interesting. You say you agree but not in the same way or for the same reasons. Thats called disagreement. Of couse Im not sure if you just think it or if its in your belief section yet. Apply accordingly.

You tell me your first reaction was to check the Scriptures and you havent said anything yet about them. That hard to believe. I guess I will stick with my former statement.

No. You and I are not the same in any way shape or form. Check the other threads for the discussion of the Christian and the World.

Trying to ease your conscience? I didn't write with personal finger pointing. I see no reason to change the way I write.

Some attention should be given another great revelation of God which would provide some underestanding, I believe, to the discussion of the Zodiac.

That revelation is the building known as the Tabernacle.

This was and is a wonderful structure. Simple yet unfathomable in its teaching of Gods truth by its very design. Its purpose was so that God could dwell with man. Lev.25:8 And when finished, the glory of God filled it.

In every aspect ofthe Tabernacle, the scrifices, the priests service, the steps of progression towards God, the very building and its material and furniture, all forshadowed and pointed towards the One true High Priest to come, Jesus Christ.

The movements of Israels High Priest through the earthly Tabernacle speak to the movements of Jesus Christ through the true tabernacle in the Heavens made by God.

Heb.8:1-2...we have such an high priest,who is set on the right hand of the throne...A minister of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Heb.9:2-11 For there was a tabernacle made; the first when in there was...And afteer the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the holiest of all;...which was a figure for the time then present....But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt (tabernacled) among us. Parenthesis mine. The word "dwelt" is tabernacled.

So, concerning the constellations of the Zodiac where in God has placed the Gospel message, we read:

Ps.19:1 " The heavens declare the glory of God...There is no speech nor language where there voice is not heard...Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun. Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

Here we see God has set a course of purpose for the Sun. He has placed a tabernacle for it wherein it moves in a progressive manner.

This tabernacle is the Zodiacal constellations. The part of the Gospelmessage assigned to each constellatin is emphasized as the sun appears, during the year, to travel through it. Just like the High Priest moves through the earthly tabernacle-Just like Jesus Christ moves thrught the heavenly tabernacle-so the physical sun moves through the tabernacle of constellations throughtout the year.

And just like the glory of God filled the earthly tabernacle when finished, so " the heavens declare the glory of God...their voice...their words....Ps.19:1-6

Hi Lees:

You quote in part: The whole context is ...

Gen 1:14 And Elohim said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And Elohim made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And Elohim set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and Elohim saw that it was good.

Your reference stopped at 'for signs, and for seasons'. By doing this a different context is broken out of the fuller context. The broken out context of course is in support of the premise that the Elohim created the Zodiac as in 'signs' and 'seasons'.

When we look closer at 'signs' and 'seasons' we find that 'signs' in the Hebrew refers to a signal or signals of any type or kind. In this case it refers to the signals that will be provided to us by all the lights of the heavens including the sun, moon and stars especially in terms of day and night.

Now the Hebrew word rendered as 'seasons' is interesting and tells me something other than what I have previously thought about it. The Hebrew word from Strong's means ...

properly an appointment, that is, a fixed time or season; specifically a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand): - appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synagogue, (set) time (appointed).

So this is saying that 'seasons' means the times of congregating and who else is to congregate but the people of the Elohim. Most interesting. This is a precursor of the commandments that YHWH gave to the Israelties about assembling for the annual Holy Days in the three 'seasons' that they occur in the spring, early summer and the fall. I didn't realize this fascinating bit of information before now.

So the lights of the heavens are to signal to us day and night and the annual times of congregation in their seasons. But that is only the broken out context. The fuller context of that verse continues with 'days and years'. This fills out the notion then that the lights of the heavens have been placed there not only to provide us the light that is necessary to support physical life but to signal to us the various times of the year including the months and days right down to the dividing of the day and night portions of the day which begins at sunset.

Now in this portion of the scriptures which deals with the appointment of the lights of the heavens to mark our times throughout the year, we can conclude that their secondary purpose is to provide mankind with a reliable calendar. The apparent stable movements of the heavens certainly do that for us.

But so far there has been nothing mentioned about any of the constellations referred to as the Mazzaroth whether they are of the Zodiac or not.

You also quote: There is nothing here specifically about the constellations of the Mazzorath at all let alone the very specific Mazzaroth of the Zodiac being created by the Elohim. It's reference is to all the heavens that are visible to us not just constellations.

In another of your posts you quote: Mazzaroth can refer to the group of constellations known as the Zodiac but it can refer to any group of constellations, within or without, in full or in part, those of the Zodiac.

In this verse the Hebrew word rendered 'season' is not the same as in the above scripture of Genesis. It means according to Strong's ...

time, especially (adverbially with preposition) now, when, etc.: - + after, [al-] ways, X certain, + continually, + evening, long, (due) season, so [long] as, [even-, evening-, noon-] tide, ([meal-], what) time, when.

So this verse can mean many different things including the seasons of the Zodiac but it can also mean that it is the Elohim that ensures that the lights of the heavens make their appearance each and every day and night continually in a majestic display of the might and power of the Creator.

You also mention:

Here is a curious rendering of this verse from LITV ...

Job 26:13 By His Spirit the heavens were beautiful; His hand pierced the fleeing snake.

... as if to say that YHWH as our Creator created the lights of the heavens to display His glory through His power of the Holy Spirit and we as His creation too took that magnificance skewing it by assigning groups of stars with names having nothing to do with Him or His power. Consequently YHWH responds to our wandering minds by wounding the fleeing crooked serpent demonstrating His disdain for the Zodiac created by mankind.

It was the lights of the heavens that the Elohim created, not the Zodiac. To make such a conclusion can only be arrived at by reading that into the scriptures. The Zodiac is of pagan origins and not from YHWH or else He would have explicitly put it into His Word. It is now obvious to me that a ''God' created Zodiac' is simply skewed conjecture depending, of course, upon which god one is talking about.

To believe that the story of the Messiah is the purpose of the Zodiac is to fall for the deception that plagues the 'I Am Christ' crowd spoken of by the Gospels as it usurps the purpose of the maginificance of the heavens of YHWH's glory replacing it with the story of His Son which is only part of the story YHWH is telling us.

Instead the scriptures tell us of the story of the restoration of the righteousness of YHWH to His creation and the coming of His kingdom to that creation. That is the full story as portrayed by the annual Holy Days of YHWH which of course does include the story of the comings of the Messiah doing His part in a very large way to bring about the Kingdom of YHWH and His righteousness beginning when YHWH brings with Him from heaven the New Jerusalem to rule his kingdom from this earth. The story in not in the lights of the heavens. The story is in the observance of the days that the lights of the heavens signal to us.

No. There is no change in context. God has simply explained the different purposes for the stars in the heavens.

"...Let there be lights in the firmament...to divide the day from the night: and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days , and years: And let them be for lights...to give light...."

You are wanting a different context. But no such different context exists.

The definition of "seasons" fits perfectly in the purpose of God accomplishing something in its set time. It can be applied to a festival, yes. As it can be for the Zodiac.

Just as your definition of "seasons" in Job 38:32. It fits perfectly with God accomplishing something at a set time.

Ill get back later with the rest. For now. Recognize that there is no such break in the context in Genesis. Only in your imaginiation.

Concerning signs: Signs are given constatntly by God to show and encourage His people that something is of Him. Look through your "Strongs" and pick one.

Information would be given as to what the sign signified. (sign-i-fied). It is clear that God assumed knowledge on Jobs part when He spoke to him about the various constellations and Mazzaroth. Thus, as it is God Who created the Mazzaroth, it is only He that can cause it to be accomplished and come to fruition. And, the information depicting that, could also only come from God.

To say the lights are just signs to signal day and night for us is pretty shallow indeed. They diffirentuate between day and night. They are signs for something else.

Concerning Rom.10: Wrong again. Romans 10 does speak to the Mazzaroth or Zodiac. It is a quote from Ps.19:4. In that same verse it is declared that this line that has gone out throughout the world involves a course that the Sun appears to follow. "In them hath he set a tabernacle for the Sun"

He then goes on to describe the Sun as a bridegroom rejoicing to run a race. Thus the line is the ecliptic line which is the course of the Sun. And what lies in that lilne? The Zodiac.

Concerning the crooked serpent of Job 26:13. The word used for "formed" is defined by the "Strongs" as formed in many other places. Such as verse 5 of the same chapter. Interestingly enough it says it speaks of forming in a twisting and writhing manner. Coincidence proabably.

Your description of the version you quoted as "curious" is accurate. Since the inference is that God has placed something in the heavens and not that the heavens are just beautiful.

So, again, It is God who gave these signs. It is man who later perverted them.

Hi Lees:

You wrote: The context isn't just stars as you suggest. The scripture you refer to is talking about the lights of the heavens which includes the sun and the moon which play a much bigger part in the Holy Calandar than the stars. So you are referring to the context of the Mazzaroth and in particular the special Zodiac Mazzaroth which is only a very small portion of the lights of the heavens.

To concentrate only on this specialized Mazzaroth of the Zodiac is to greatly take away from the intent of the meaning of the appointment of ALL the lights of the heavens to be used as a sign or signal to observe the annual festivals of YHWH as well as the weekly Sabbath between its scheduled times of the sunsets as determined by the coming up and the going down of the sun.

The context of these scriptures is instead referring to the Holy Calendar and not to constellations at all but to just the stars that add to the light of the night portion of the day and the splendor of the creation of the Creator by their numbers, vastness and beauty. Nothing at all is mentioned about constellations, Mazzaroth or Zodiac and they were never intended to be included because the Creator never created the notion of the Zodiac. Lights of the heavens He created. Zodiac, He never created. It is just a concept of man which at best is neutrally referred to in the scriptures but also in a somewhat negative light.

You wrote: According to the definition it is very specific to the festivals and directly refers to the annual Holy Days of YHWH. No question about that. To say it refers to His creation of a Zodiac is to read it into the scriptures. It can be applied to the Zodiac as it has been but improperly done so against the pleasing will of the Creator.

You wrote: I would consider that to follow that advice would be foolish.

No. As I said there is no change in context as I never indicated Gen.1:14-15 spoke only to the Zodiac.

I used the term "stars" in general for all in the heavens. The point being they, stars, lights, planets, are for signs and seasons, days, and years.

Nothing is taken away from the festivals just because the heavens also show the Zodiac. And no concentration was given that this speaks only to the Zodiac. But emphasis was made concerning the Zodiac as that is the subject and not the festivals. But, its interesting that there was this great revelation given prior to the festivals being given.

I believe you have erred again. You say the context is the Holy Calender. Yet there is nothing "specifically" said that this is a "holy calender". And I know how you like "specificity".

The context here is that the stars, planets, lights, are for signs, seasons, days, and years. Of which context I have stayed.

You are trying to make a big deal on the definition of the word seasons in Gen.1:14. As I said it can be used for festivals, but that is not its only definition. 2Kings 4:16 "And he said,About this season, accoriding to the time of life, thou shalt embrace a son."

And, I am not only talking about the word "seasons". But even if I was, it is sufficient to cover the Zodiac.

So, still, there is no break in the context. Be sure to read my past reply #288368

The monk who created the mosaic on the floor of the Dormition Abbey used the Zodiac symbols to represent the world. The 12 Apostles in that same mosaic represents those who went out to spread the gospel to the world (which in this case was respresented by the Zodiac).



A star was used in the Old Testament to fortell the birth of Jesus Christ (See Numbers 24:17). The Star of Bethlehem that the Magis were following was really not a very bright star at all. No one could see the star of Bethlehem except the Magis because they studied the prophecies and knew that the birth of a new star would signify the birth of a king.

If you had read a little you would have seen that the reason, as I told Aus, that the Abbey was brought up, was to show that the Zodiac was not considered evil or idolatrous by the Roman Church. Thats all. Thanks for the history though.

Numbers 24:17 does not prophecy a heavenly star showing the way to Bethlehem. It says "there shall come a Star out of Jacob". That star is Jesus Christ. Not a star in the heavens pointing the way.

Do you really believe this verse? Is it authoratative to the Roman Church? Do you believe the last part also?