From Wikipedia once again:

Sola fide ("by faith alone")

Sola fide is the teaching that justification (interpreted in Protestant theology as, "being declared right by God"), is received by faith only, without any mixture of or need for good works, though in classical Protestant theology, saving faith is always evidenced by good works. Some Protestants see this doctrine as being summarized with the formula "Faith yields justification and good works" and as contrasted with the Roman Catholic formula "Faith and good works yield justification."


Is it by faith alone, or by faith mixed with good works that a person is justified before God? According to this principle of Sola Fide, it is by faith alone. But then James says in chapter 2 verse 24:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Lol. I also understand that Luther didn't like the book of James, and considered leaving it out of his Bible.

What do you guys think?

I think you ought to get away from Wikipedea and start referencing some of your other sources.

I also think you should offer your Evangellical explanation of how redemption/salvation comes from 'faith alone,' when you've alsready said that salvation comes from belief in the Scriptured.

What is Faith Alone? What is erathly redemtion or salvation?

Sorry for all the typos--I was tired.

A neighbor called me this evening to ask me if I wanted to go to her Presber Women's Outreach Christmas program. The only time I've missed it was when I was going into my first brain surgery.

She also asked me if she should ask another neighbor--an 86 yr. old woman who lost her husband about three years ago and who has, since, tended to stay in. I said, sure, tell her the chicken salad is excellent.

Sandy is using her Faith to lead her into Good Works. Is the opposite not true? This doesn't mean that anonymous charitable contributions will give one faith, but couldn't good works--aeeing what people all over the world suffer--hunger, homelessness, murder, disease--give some people the belief/faith that whatever they can do will somehow help?

Which comes first, Tobias?

Hello Tobias,

Like the song goes........... Nothing but the blood of Jesus

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

People do not understand the bible. It is written to us and for us.

Some are things that happened and were for the people in "time past" !

and some is for the present in "this time". And some is for the future
"to come"....

When you know were to divide your bible , it is all for us , but not
directed for us to do at this time..

we receive.. we accept God's forgiveness and mercy through faith. The first commandment.. "Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." ~ Matthew 22:37

faith.. we believe, we know.. God, first, through faith. Not just some fantasy, magical thinking.. but knowing, seeing, and trusting God through our experiences of God in our lives. Doctrine and intellect can help one to understand, to contextualize... but it doesn't transform us. We cannot receive fully the promise and love of God without faith. Faith is a radical departure from all things of this world, culture.

The great message of the gospel is that we can be justified (forgiven and accepted by God) by grace through faith on account of Christ.

justification happens when we have open ourselves up to and receive through our faith and love of God. the free and unconditional gift (Grace).

Hi Tobias:

What you've pointed out here is how we as Bible students sometimes, or even often, emphasis portions of the scriptures and end up getting different meanings from it. Like you've illustrated the Catholic religious organization has one view and the Protestant religious organizations another view. Sometimes one is right and the other wrong about it or both are wrong but seldom is everyone of differing views correct. but perhaps we can see how we can come to be like minded despite this.

The building of the righteousness of YHWH in us can be likened to that of the building of a house in how we approach the scriptures and what we come away from them with.

For instance you refer us to ...

James 2 24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

And Grams refers us to ...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

... and we get apparent conflicting views about faith depending upon where we place our own emphasis on the different scriptures.

When we discuss plans to build a house one might say that we need wood to build that house and everyone would agree. Or another might say in sandy soil we need a deep foundational to build a house and everyone would agree. But we would all agree because we also understand that other things are also needed and NOT JUST WOOD and NOT JUST a DEEP FOUNDATION.

So it is with faith and the final product of getting YHWH's righteousness into all of us. Faith is certainly needed to reach that righteousness of YHWH but it isn't the only thing and yet without faith it is impossible to become righteous like YHWH is righteous. Faith is to righteousness like wood is to a house. And of course there is a whole process and list of items that must go on and be included in between for the faith/wood to be turned into righteousness/house.

Just in the above two scriptures are five items that are needed in the process of reaching the righteousness of YHWH including faith. Justification, works, grace, salvation and gift of 'God'. And there are more items that are needed not included in these. Yet we are tending to concentrate only on one or two items, such as faith or works, pinning the outcome of righteousness only on those aspects of the process of reaching the righteousness of YHWH. We can't build a house to code using only wood.

Yet all of our views are not necessarily wrong because they are most often based upon a truth or two of the scriptures. What we miss is how they are to fit into the overall picture because we have not yet become aware of their association one to another.

Another aspect of understanding this is missing what the whole point of all this is and what the scriptures are pointing us to. One will say the whole point is salvation, another will say 'Jesus' another will say to do good to others, another will say to follow the Law of YHWH, another will say to do what YOU think is best. Again these can be admirable goals in themselves but are they the ultimate will of the Creator?

OK. So here is my sometimes not so humble of an opinion on this. MANY are given faith from YHWH.

We choose either to accept it ot reject it. If we reject it, end of story for now. If we accept it, then we accept it for a reason. The scriptures, the one from James above as well as some adjoining it, in particular, tell us that for faith to be of any value we must put it to use. That is works. If we put it to use according to the Law of YHWH or His commandments, that is good works. If we put it to work according to our own reasoning that most often results in evil works. It we just depend upon that faith, which is the knowledge of YHWH, and do nothing with it, our faith is dead faith because it produces nothing of value either to ourselves, to others or to YHWH.

Again, according to James, if we do good works according to the faith that YHWH has given us, then we start to believe YHWH because we see how the information of faith that He gave us really does work for the betterment of our lives and the live of those around us. As we are given more faith from YHWH as a result of our growing belief in Him we see how good works of the Law and commandments of YHWH are indeed truth and encompass only those things that cause life to flourish. We prove to ourselves the faith of YHWH in us and at some stage of belief, just like Abraham believed YHWH, YHWH considers us to be justified because of our belief.

But don't forget, belief is a result of faith and good works and justification is a result of continued growing belief in YHWH. When we are justified in YHWH's eyes because we belief Him in the same way Abraham believed Him then we are given a portion of the Holy Spirit of YHWH which throughout the scriptures has and will be accompanied by rites of passage, such as manifestations of the Spirit and baptism depending upon the circumstances of the times. All of these are precepts that need to be in their proper place and placed in their proper order to reach the righteousness of YHWH.

If we continue to overcome, another aspect of the building of righteousess, that is, to continue in our belief of YHWH by overcoming unbelief which in turn causes us to overcome sin and evil in our day to day lives, until our dying day, then we will have died in the name of YHWH-saves (YaHshua) and we be resurrected at the return of YaHshua. At that time our physical bodies will be turned into spiritual immortal bodies.

At that point we will have reached the hope of this age, salvation, yet another aspect of our reaching the righteousness of YHWH. We will have, because of our continued standing of justification be saved from sin and the death penalty that it incurred. We will be saved from eternal death at the point of our conversion to spirit beings.

But of utmost importance is that we will receive the fullness of the righteousness of YHWH by being given the fullness of His Holy Spirit so that we will never again sin and do only righteousness. That is the righteouseness that ensures continued eternal life and we will see at that point how it is that YaH-exists (YHWH) because of righteousness and that we must be the same as Him in this regard to exist in His kingdom. We will see and know YHWH in that day, in the day of our resurrection, like He is and how we will be from then on.

So if we hear someone claim that faith is needed to be saved let's assume they are correct because in terms of the amount of faith they have been given they quite likely are so that we can learn and build up one another until our day of redemption (yet another aspect of reaching righteousness) is realized. For until that time none of us have all the faith of YHWH let alone believe in Him totally like YaHshua did. Let us come to YHWH in the faith that He has given us, together, learning from our differences rather than bickering and disputing over them so that as YaHshua prayed, we can all be one with them eternally, in faith, belief, righteousness, peace and Life in the kingdom of YHWH in all of its aspects.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Hi Grams:

You quoted: I, of course agree with this scripture.

Paul said this because Jewish believers came to Antioch where many Gentile believers resided to join with Peter, Paul and all the others of the Church.

But these Jewish believers started to insist that the Gentiles had to be circumcised in order to be saved. They were trying to include that ancient Israelite covenant in the Gospel of salvation which had nothing to do with it, especially where the Gentiles were concerned. That ancient covenant was only to be observed by the Israelites and not the Gentiles.

Further, the Jewish believers from Jerusalem had somehow started to believe that they themselves had to be circumcised to be saved. They still had to be circumcised but not because of salvation but because it was an everlasting convenant between the Israelites, including all believing Jews, and YHWH. That part of their understanding of the gospel had been distorted to the point that they had even convinced Peter of the matter.

Paul was so surprised that Peter was deceived by this, because not that much earlier Paul had confirmed this with the leading Apostles in Jerusalem, that he lit into Peter on the spot reminding him of the truth of the Gospel. That had to have taken guts to do considering many there had learned directly from the Messiah, especially Peter who had always been pretty rammy about things.

But Peter understood his error as Paul was more convincing than those from Jerusalem. That must have been quite a spectacle.

So Paul concluded this session but saying that above all things ...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with the Messiah: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but the Messiah liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of YHWH, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In other words Paul lived, or worked, if you will, the faith that was given to him by YHWH through YaHshua. The Law of YHWH is based upon the knowledge that YHWH has that is necessary to sustain Life eternally. The faith that YHWH gives us is based upon that very same knowledge of YHWH. So when we practise the things that bring us life we are living the faith of YaHshua in us which means we are also keeping the letter Law of YHWH automatically but through faith also in the Spirit in which it was intended to be used.

That's why Paul said ...

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of YHWH: for if righteousness come by the law, then the Messiah is dead in vain.

In other words Paul is saying that we shouldn't frustrate the grace of YHWH by following the Law in vain by trying to become justified and righteous by following its commandments, not even the Law of Moses on circumcision. Instead, we should be following the Law of YHWH because that is where His faith leads us. Indeed there is absolutely nothing we can do within or without the Law to save ourselves otherwise the sacrifice of the Messiah would not have been necessary. The grace of YHWH is based upon the faith that leads us to do the righteousness that is found in the Law of Eternal Life, not the other way around.

Grams, you have brought to us another aspect of the process of restoring the righteousness of YHWH in us that I hadn't included in my previous post, that of the grace of YHWH, and how it relates properly to this process. Although simple in concept, Paul reminds us there are many things to do when he says ...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Good point, Grams.

Glad to see other participants in this discussion. The tenet of the second sola seems to be 'Does faith come first, or does works come first?' I'm reminded of the 'hiding your light (or talents) under a bushel' sermon. Can there be faith without works? There can certainly be good works without faith, but do those good works lead to faith?

But we're going into that discussion too soon. If this is my error, I apologize.



This is the second of the soli:

which is very like one of the first questions in the RC Catechism--keeping in mind that a catechism is a Socratic method of divining truth.

"Why did God make you? God made me to know, love and serve Him on earth and be happy with Him in Heaven."

Also, keep in mind that a catechism is used to 'teach' children the mysteries of religious beliefs at a very basic level--at least in the RCC.

So what does the Sola mean?

Tobias, I'd really like to see the Soli thread revived. You started it and I find it a great way to examine some of the 'differences' between Catholic and Protestant--as long as we remain polite.