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#280653 - 09/06/08 05:38 AM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: Elena]
stone Offline
Computer Tips Moderator

Registered: 01/07/03
Quote:
Btw, according to USA data, there were 9 thousand of Russians (+350 vehicles) and 8 thousand of Georgians (+250 vehicles). Thus forces were almost equal.

Do you have a source for this?

And what vehicles? I highly doubt the Georgians were rolling around in Abrams tanks and flying the latest F18 fighters to defend themselves against the newest MIGS and T90 tanks. So what if the numbers were even, the Russians still have a far more established fighting force.
_________________________
-- Stone --
"Nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
Hot as a pistol but cool inside.
Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!"
-- Jerry Garcia

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#280701 - 09/06/08 03:17 PM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: stone]
Bad Bird Offline
experienced member

Registered: 02/17/08
Loc: WA, USA
Originally by: stone
The article you posted really gives more insight into why Russia felt the need to invade Georgia. So what if Israel struck a deal to use Georgia as a base of operations to defend themselves against Iran. No wonder Russia invaded, destroying Georgian infrastructure along with many of their military bases. They obviously didn't want the Israeli's using it as a base of operations to attack one of Russia's close partners, that being Iran.

An interesting point, Stone. You are saying that Russia made a pre-emptive strike against a neighbor (Georgia) in order to prevent a possible strike by a third party (Israel) against one of their allies (Iran)? Even disregarding the general question of pre-emptive strikes' legitimacy, one must really wonder about the justification for making a pre-emptive strike when your own country is not the possible target. In Iraq the stated reason was danger to the USA from WMDs, not the danger to Israel or one of the other ME countries.
_________________________
Bad Bird


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#280704 - 09/06/08 03:25 PM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: Bad Bird]
stone Offline
Computer Tips Moderator

Registered: 01/07/03
Quote:
You are saying that Russia made a pre-emptive strike against a neighbor (Georgia) in order to prevent a possible strike by a third party (Israel) against one of their allies (Iran)?

I'm saying the article would give some credence to that theory, yes.
_________________________
-- Stone --
"Nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
Hot as a pistol but cool inside.
Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!"
-- Jerry Garcia

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#281381 - 09/08/08 02:24 AM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: stone]
Elena Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
First off, and I already asked, but why is Russia so afraid of NATO?


Why? Don't you remember what NATO did in Serbia? Don't you know what NATO is doing in Iraq? Pakistan was NATO's friend. About 70000 of Pakistani soldiers struggled against Pashtuns and what a reward they got?
NATO isn't peaceful. NATO nearby our boarders is a real danger.

Quote:
Second, Russia media clamored on and on about how thousands upon thousands of Ossentian's were being killed by the Georgians. This has turned out not to be true.


Put it in detail, please. Who did count them?

Quote:
You keep going on about genocide, but as Lawmage so eloquently put it, what the Georgian's have done to the Ossentian's can hardly be considered as genocide.


Georgian forces attacked civilians of different ethnicity, while they were sleeping. It is an intentional eliminating of nation. Helice said that you use term "genocide" for the specific situation in Muslims society. But this word is used for elimination of Jews by Nazis and for elimination of Albanians and Croats by Serbs (elimination of Serbs somehow isn't genocide). Such a selective use of this term!

As I see, western people don't beleive that a lot of people were killed. OK. How many civilians should be killed to recognize this act as genocide?

Quote:
The article you posted really gives more insight into why Russia felt the need to invade Georgia.


It gives a little piece of additional information about the situation. In reality everything is much more complicated. I don't know whether you study World History. I mean the situation on Caucasus before the WWI. There were several big players: Turkey (Osman Empire), Germany, GB, Iran and a lot of local terroristic organizations. Those organizations had double, triple or more agents.The Intelligence Services of all countries played a very complicated game. And what was a result? WWI. Revolutions all over the Europe (yes, those terroristic organizations did it). Europe could cope it, but Russia was under their rule during 70 years. Of course, the proper period of their rule was ended with the death of Stalin and Beria.

Quote:
A consolidation of media, murders of anti-Putin journalists,


I repeat again, the most of anti-Putin journalists, much more significant that those, who were killed, are alive.

For example, Yulia Latynina. Use online Translator.
.http://www.inopressa.ru/inotheme/2008/09/05/11:36:40/russia

There are a lot of journalists, who write bad things about Putin. Surprisingly, they don't afraid of him...

Quote:
I'm really surprised you defend Putin as much as you do.


First, he is better than Bush and Saakashvili, just IMHO.
Second, he stuggles for Russia's interests.
I don't like Putin. i don't like politicians at all. But he is somehow better than many of them. At least he is clever. I like clever men.
Third, I don't see any eveidences of crimes West accused him. You can as well say that it was Putin, who committed teract of 11 of September. No evidences, just suspects.
_________________________
"It is better to be roughly right than precisely wrong"

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#281382 - 09/08/08 02:42 AM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: stone]
Elena Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
Quote:
Elena:Btw, according to USA data, there were 9 thousand of Russians (+350 vehicles) and 8 thousand of Georgians (+250 vehicles). Thus forces were almost equal.
Do you have a source for this?


I used information by bbc.
.http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/international/newsid_7575000/7575123.stm

Quote:
According to the Associated Press data there were about 9 thousand of Russian army men and 350 armored vehicles.

But, when I checked this information, it turned to be that Associated Press meant forces in Abkhazia. Really, Saakshvily planned to attack Abkhazia first. He changed his plans due Ukrainian Intelligence Services, who gave him false information.
I can give you information by Russian Ministry of Defence (6 thousand of Georgians against 8 thousand of Russians).
Georgians had 100 T-72 (good friend Israel, Russia got 44 of them) and Russia - 150 of T-62 and T-72. Armored vehicles – 70 against 300. Artillery - 70 against 100. And there are no precise data about air forces. Yes, Russian Army had anadvantage..., but Georgian Army was trained by NATO instructors.
Btw, Russia sells modern weapon to other countries, but Russian army uses Soviet weapon. It is much cheaper and more reliable. Thus Russia doesn’t have T-90 (but China has).
_________________________
"It is better to be roughly right than precisely wrong"

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#281446 - 09/08/08 02:04 PM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: Elena]
RNG Offline
veteran member

Registered: 09/16/02
Loc: Atlantic Fringe. Terra.
Marx's greatest weakness, one of quite a few, was that he didn't understand market/technological dynamism...
_________________________
Grace Peace Love Life be yours always

In God we live and move and have our being

Tho' he slay me yet will I praise him

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#281448 - 09/08/08 02:13 PM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: Elena]
RNG Offline
veteran member

Registered: 09/16/02
Loc: Atlantic Fringe. Terra.
It is a risky buying opportunity, but the Rouble is now falling heavily, money doesn’t talk, it swears, and it’s doing so loudly!

Russia Ukraine was only one out of around 50-60 supply unreliability cases.
_________________________
Grace Peace Love Life be yours always

In God we live and move and have our being

Tho' he slay me yet will I praise him

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#281525 - 09/09/08 01:32 AM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: RNG]
Elena Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
Marx's greatest weakness, one of quite a few, was that he didn't understand market/technological dynamism...


But I meant Adam Smith...
_________________________
"It is better to be roughly right than precisely wrong"

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#281526 - 09/09/08 01:38 AM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: RNG]
Elena Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
It is a risky buying opportunity, but the Rouble is now falling heavily, money doesn’t talk, it swears, and it’s doing so loudly!


Let's wait a little bit...


Quote:
Russia Ukraine was only one out of around 50-60 supply unreliability cases.


Thus, it is not Russia, but Her unreliable partners. smile
That is why Russia constructs "North Stream" and "Blue Stream" pipelines. The less partners, the reliable system.
_________________________
"It is better to be roughly right than precisely wrong"

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#281777 - 09/11/08 12:35 AM Re: War in Georgia! [Re: lizbeth]
Elena Offline
Sci/Tech Moderator

Registered: 07/10/05
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Quote:
A web-site owner was shot and killed there while being escorted off a airplane by local police, who claim that Yevloyev, an owner of a web-site critical of the Kremlin, tried to take a gun from a policeman and was shot in the head in the ensueing scuffle.


Yesterday Zyazikov's cousin was killed. You know everything. So, who killed him?
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